Zoom/SoxNats argument

SoxNats09 wrote:

imevil wrote:

ROFL!

Actually, I was just kinda sick of arguing about something pointless, but I still believe in my point.

Do you believe in flying spaghetti monsters too? because you seem to believe in things that arent true

I would like to eat a flying spaghetti monster, Im pretty hungry right now.

I dont think Tra Thomas not being re-signed has anything to do with his abilities...The Eagles are getting young, Tra Thomas is not young. They didnt resign Dawkins but hes still a good player. I think Westbrooks decline has nothing to do with Thomas, I think it has to due with him being injured and having nagging injuries, him getting older, and him being the centerpiece of the offense and the whole league knew it.

I dont think Tra Thomas is a top 5 LT but hes certainly not as bad as your trying to make him appear.

Harper41 wrote:

I dont think Tra Thomas not being re-signed has anything to do with his abilities...The Eagles are getting young, Tra Thomas is not young. They didnt resign Dawkins but hes still a good player. I think Westbrooks decline has nothing to do with Thomas, I think it has to due with him being injured and having nagging injuries, him getting older, and him being the centerpiece of the offense and the whole league knew it.

I dont think Tra Thomas is a top 5 LT but hes certainly not as bad as your trying to make him appear.

I said he was a top 15, nothing wrong with that. However Ray Lewis is a top 5 MLB which is where this whole arguement stemmed from. Besides, if Thomas was any more valuable than top 15 they would have kept him around for when they inevitably draft an OT, especially with Runyan in the position he's in.

Westbrook has been the centerpiece of the offense for years, you're saying opposing defenses have just learned of this now? Hes also always had injury troubles, yet that hasnt stopped him from recording 4.8 ypc or higher, this is old news that hasnt dragged him down before. Philly was off on the run-block this year.

Hes also getting up their in age...He could have hit the wall much like LT did. He went from stud couldnt be stopped HB to just another good one.

Harper41 wrote:

Hes also getting up their in age...He could have hit the wall much like LT did. He went from stud couldnt be stopped HB to just another good one.

youre comparing him to a HB who had a poor line this year too (not saying LT didnt underperform on his own, but the OL didnt help).

I was just using LT as an example, he went from best HB in the league to just being a good HB in 1-2 years...

Harper41 wrote:

I was just using LT as an example, he went from best HB in the league to just being a good HB in 1-2 years...

an example which supports what ive been saying

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

And btw, Thomas also signed a 3 year deal, with the Jags.

cool, too bad he signed when it was no longer relevant

SoxNats09 wrote:

And Thomas is a top LT in the league still IMO.

Bryant McKinnie

and this coming from a die-hard Vikings fan!

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

Harper41 wrote:

I was just using LT as an example, he went from best HB in the league to just being a good HB in 1-2 years...

an example which supports what ive been saying

No it doesnt...Tra is still playing at an elite level, LT is not. It didnt support you in anyway.

Harper41 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

Harper41 wrote:

I was just using LT as an example, he went from best HB in the league to just being a good HB in 1-2 years...

an example which supports what ive been saying

No it doesnt...Tra is still playing at an elite level, LT is not. It didnt support you in anyway.

Tra is not playing at an "elite level", and it supported me because (as I said before) LT struggled but he also had a struggling OL, last year LT was more like Westbrook than any other HB in the league, both their OLs struggled in support, both had a nagging injury, both failed to put up their average numbers. So thanks for the support.

AllMadden08 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

And btw, Thomas also signed a 3 year deal, with the Jags.

cool, too bad he signed when it was no longer relevant

SoxNats09 wrote:

And Thomas is a top LT in the league still IMO.

Bryant McKinnie

and this coming from a die-hard Vikings fan!

I know, I'm just not in the mood to argue anymore since it's really not gonna go anywhere. The point is still correct, as multiple people have confirmed.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

Harper41 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

Harper41 wrote:

I was just using LT as an example, he went from best HB in the league to just being a good HB in 1-2 years...

an example which supports what ive been saying

No it doesnt...Tra is still playing at an elite level, LT is not. It didnt support you in anyway.

Tra is not playing at an "elite level", and it supported me because (as I said before) LT struggled but he also had a struggling OL, last year LT was more like Westbrook than any other HB in the league, both their OLs struggled in support, both had a nagging injury, both failed to put up their average numbers. So thanks for the support.

Or maybe their both old and hit the wall. Tra Thomas is still playing at a very high level but I really dont care. I agree Ray Lewis is the more valuable player I just think your underrating Tra.

SoxNats09 wrote:

AllMadden08 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

And btw, Thomas also signed a 3 year deal, with the Jags.

cool, too bad he signed when it was no longer relevant

SoxNats09 wrote:

And Thomas is a top LT in the league still IMO.

Bryant McKinnie

and this coming from a die-hard Vikings fan!

I know, I'm just not in the mood to argue anymore since it's really not gonna go anywhere. The point is still correct, as multiple people have confirmed.

ZERO people have confirmed your point here

out of a list of 13 players one person had a problem with 1 guy being on there, dont think that makes you anything close to being right

Harper41 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

Harper41 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

Harper41 wrote:

I was just using LT as an example, he went from best HB in the league to just being a good HB in 1-2 years...

an example which supports what ive been saying

No it doesnt...Tra is still playing at an elite level, LT is not. It didnt support you in anyway.

Tra is not playing at an "elite level", and it supported me because (as I said before) LT struggled but he also had a struggling OL, last year LT was more like Westbrook than any other HB in the league, both their OLs struggled in support, both had a nagging injury, both failed to put up their average numbers. So thanks for the support.

Or maybe their both old and hit the wall. Tra Thomas is still playing at a very high level but I really dont care. I agree Ray Lewis is the more valuable player I just think your underrating Tra.

Or Tra Thomas is old, hit his wall, and contributed to Westbrooks poor play.

I put Tra as the 14th LT in the league, hes 34 years old and everyone else I listed were in their prime with a few exceptions, if anything that's a compliment. Hes still playing on a high level but certainly isnt elite, but he was a factor in the Eagles sub-par offensive line, if you cannot accept that then you're simply being ignorant.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

AllMadden08 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

And btw, Thomas also signed a 3 year deal, with the Jags.

cool, too bad he signed when it was no longer relevant

SoxNats09 wrote:

And Thomas is a top LT in the league still IMO.

Bryant McKinnie

and this coming from a die-hard Vikings fan!

I know, I'm just not in the mood to argue anymore since it's really not gonna go anywhere. The point is still correct, as multiple people have confirmed.

ZERO people have confirmed your point here

out of a list of 13 players one person had a problem with 1 guy being on there, dont think that makes you anything close to being right

I guess MK doesn't exist then. I can make arguments for many of those guys... btw argument ≠ fact unlike you think.

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

AllMadden08 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

And btw, Thomas also signed a 3 year deal, with the Jags.

cool, too bad he signed when it was no longer relevant

SoxNats09 wrote:

And Thomas is a top LT in the league still IMO.

Bryant McKinnie

and this coming from a die-hard Vikings fan!

I know, I'm just not in the mood to argue anymore since it's really not gonna go anywhere. The point is still correct, as multiple people have confirmed.

ZERO people have confirmed your point here

out of a list of 13 players one person had a problem with 1 guy being on there, dont think that makes you anything close to being right

I guess MK doesn't exist then. I can make arguments for many of those guys... btw argument ≠ fact unlike you think.

Im pretty sure MK just said that Ray Lewis is more valuable than Tra? That is what this whole argument is about. Would you like a side of fries with your heaping helping of failure?

and any argument is useless without facts, you cant prove a point with opinions. If you can think of ONE scenario where facts aren't needed in a rational arguement then feel free to prove me wrong, just ONE scenario.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

AllMadden08 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

And btw, Thomas also signed a 3 year deal, with the Jags.

cool, too bad he signed when it was no longer relevant

SoxNats09 wrote:

And Thomas is a top LT in the league still IMO.

Bryant McKinnie

and this coming from a die-hard Vikings fan!

I know, I'm just not in the mood to argue anymore since it's really not gonna go anywhere. The point is still correct, as multiple people have confirmed.

ZERO people have confirmed your point here

out of a list of 13 players one person had a problem with 1 guy being on there, dont think that makes you anything close to being right

I guess MK doesn't exist then. I can make arguments for many of those guys... btw argument ≠ fact unlike you think.

Im pretty sure MK just said that Ray Lewis is more valuable than Tra? That is what this whole argument is about. Would you like a side of fries with your heaping helping of failure?

and any argument is useless without facts, you cant prove a point with opinions. If you can think of ONE scenario where facts aren't needed in a rational arguement then feel free to prove me wrong, just ONE scenario.

I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the top LT thing.

And I agree with you on the last part, my point is that your argument for him not being a top LT is opinionated.

SoxNats09 wrote:

I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the top LT thing.

And I agree with you on the last part, my point is that your argument for him not being a top LT is opinionated.

to which MK said he didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT, so he wasnt even agreeing with you on that either.

HOW and WHERE did I give an opinion in justifying long, clady or gandy to you

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the top LT thing.

And I agree with you on the last part, my point is that your argument for him not being a top LT is opinionated.

to which MK said he didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT, so he wasnt even agreeing with you on that either.

HOW and WHERE did I give an opinion in justifying long, clady or gandy to you

I said top OT, not top 5.

That's exactly the point... you said they are better (which is your opinion), and then you provide facts such as Long was important in making the Fins go from 1-15 to 11-5. That doesn't really show anything. I said that Thomas was instrumental in getting the Eagles to the NFC Championship game. Fins didn't make it to the championship game. Therefore, Eagles>Dolphins, so Thomas > Long. Obviously that's not necessarily true, but that is the type of reasoning you are using.

And as to the point I was trying to make in the very beginning, what are we basing these resignings off of? Madden 09 ratings. And in Madden 09, Thomas is rated higher than Lewis. Saying Lewis > Thomas is purely opinion, my point is that since we are following the ratings in every other aspect of resignings, why not this one?

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the top LT thing.

And I agree with you on the last part, my point is that your argument for him not being a top LT is opinionated.

to which MK said he didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT, so he wasnt even agreeing with you on that either.

HOW and WHERE did I give an opinion in justifying long, clady or gandy to you

I said top OT, not top 5.

That's exactly the point... you said they are better (which is your opinion), and then you provide facts such as Long was important in making the Fins go from 1-15 to 11-5. That doesn't really show anything. I said that Thomas was instrumental in getting the Eagles to the NFC Championship game. Fins didn't make it to the championship game. Therefore, Eagles>Dolphins, so Thomas > Long. Obviously that's not necessarily true, but that is the type of reasoning you are using.

And as to the point I was trying to make in the very beginning, what are we basing these resignings off of? Madden 09 ratings. And in Madden 09, Thomas is rated higher than Lewis. Saying Lewis > Thomas is purely opinion, my point is that since we are following the ratings in every other aspect of resignings, why not this one?

If you didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT then there was no reason for you to suggest he should be released over Ray Lewis, unless you were trying to cover your tracks for pointing out Lewis could have been franchised when you didnt realize this was a team that had a GM.

How does showing facts proving Long was a huge contribution to the team not prove anything. What I did was present facts as to why Long was important to the team. You didnt give any facts or reasons for why Thomas did well, all you said was "he was instumental in blocking for McNabb". Then I presented facts that deducted from his run support. You havent presented any factual information at all, you're the one whos been trying to pass your own opinion as fact.

And that type of reasoning I am in no way using, im not comparing two teams that didnt meet each other in the playoffs, im comparing an aspect of each team and giving reason as to why one excelled while the other failed.

You're completely wrong about what we're looking for in re-signings, we're re-signing those who will be helpful in Madden 10 given their most updated madden 09 ratings; example, if you had to choose between resigning an 81 player in madden 09 whos 60 in the updates and an 80 rated player in madden 09 whos 90 in the updates, you should choose the 80 overall player.. Lewis plays a much more important position, Lewis is younger, and Lewis' rating was in place to take a slight increase where as Tra's was in the position to taking a slight dip. All of those factors point to Lewis being the more valuable player and THAT is why you're wrong about Tra being the one who should have been released.

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the top LT thing.

And I agree with you on the last part, my point is that your argument for him not being a top LT is opinionated.

to which MK said he didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT, so he wasnt even agreeing with you on that either.

HOW and WHERE did I give an opinion in justifying long, clady or gandy to you

I said top OT, not top 5.

That's exactly the point... you said they are better (which is your opinion), and then you provide facts such as Long was important in making the Fins go from 1-15 to 11-5. That doesn't really show anything. I said that Thomas was instrumental in getting the Eagles to the NFC Championship game. Fins didn't make it to the championship game. Therefore, Eagles>Dolphins, so Thomas > Long. Obviously that's not necessarily true, but that is the type of reasoning you are using.

And as to the point I was trying to make in the very beginning, what are we basing these resignings off of? Madden 09 ratings. And in Madden 09, Thomas is rated higher than Lewis. Saying Lewis > Thomas is purely opinion, my point is that since we are following the ratings in every other aspect of resignings, why not this one?

If you didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT then there was no reason for you to suggest he should be released over Ray Lewis, unless you were trying to cover your tracks for pointing out Lewis could have been franchised when you didnt realize this was a team that had a GM.

How does showing facts proving Long was a huge contribution to the team not prove anything. What I did was present facts as to why Long was important to the team. You didnt give any facts or reasons for why Thomas did well, all you said was "he was instumental in blocking for McNabb". Then I presented facts that deducted from his run support. You havent presented any factual information at all, you're the one whos been trying to pass your own opinion as fact.

And that type of reasoning I am in no way using, im not comparing two teams that didnt meet each other in the playoffs, im comparing an aspect of each team and giving reason as to why one excelled while the other failed.

You're completely wrong about what we're looking for in re-signings, we're re-signing those who will be helpful in Madden 10 given their most updated madden 09 ratings; example, if you had to choose between resigning an 81 player in madden 09 whos 60 in the updates and an 80 rated player in madden 09 whos 90 in the updates, you should choose the 80 overall player.. Lewis plays a much more important position, Lewis is younger, and Lewis' rating was in place to take a slight increase where as Tra's was in the position to taking a slight dip. All of those factors point to Lewis being the more valuable player and THAT is why you're wrong about Tra being the one who should have been released.

You are correct in that I didn't believe they had a GM.

I don't see much evidence... Westbrook's YPC has dropped. As MK said, that also has to do with the fact that he's reaching 30... I didn't see any conclusive counter to that. This is your reasoning for Long:

Quote :

ok so the greatest turnaround in NFL history has nothing to do with the #1 overall pick performing well, if thats your line of thinking then theres simply no reasoning with you.

Same can be said of Thomas. Substutite greatest turnaround with making it to the NFC championship game, substitute #1 pick with Thomas, and there's your argument right back at you.

Of course we look towards 2010, but as of now there really is no conclusive evidence that either will drop 20 pts or gain 10 pts as you said in your extreme example. They will be in the same range, and thus you are basically using your opinion here. I don't see how you can say otherwise to that point.

SoxNats09 wrote:

This is your reasoning for Long:

Quote :

ok so the greatest turnaround in NFL history has nothing to do with the #1 overall pick performing well, if thats your line of thinking then theres simply no reasoning with you.

Same can be said of Thomas. Substutite greatest turnaround with making it to the NFC championship game, substitute #1 pick with Thomas, and there's your argument right back at you.

a) THIS was my reasoning for Long

Quote :

-Dolphins draft OT #1 overall
-Dolphins go 11-5
-reason Dolphins go 11-5?
-A: trick plays, balanced running attack, good QB, pass rush
-where do trick plays usually get run?
-A: to the outside
-who guards the outside?
-A: OT's
-who plays OT for the Dolphins?
-A: Jake Long
-who rushes for 5.0 ypc when Jake Long is the primary blocker (this is a statistic incase you were wondering)
-A: Ricky Williams/Ronnie Brown

b) the same cannot be said for Tra Thomas because Miami's run game beasted where as Phillys was lacking. If 30 is the "magic age where you all of a sudden slump" then Ricky Williams (31) shouldnt have averaged more ypc than Westbrook.

SoxNats09 wrote:

Of course we look towards 2010, but as of now there really is no conclusive evidence that either will drop 20 pts or gain 10 pts as you said in your extreme example. They will be in the same range, and thus you are basically using your opinion here. I don't see how you can say otherwise to that point.

as of now Tra has dropped 2 points, Ray Lewis has gone up 3 points, so far theyre sitting at a 4 pt difference, and when that 4 pts is between 93 and 97, that gap is fairly large. Obviously that IS NOT opinion, I suggest you know the facts or else you come out looking like an idiot. And the fact is Lewis' rating has already jumped, Thomas' rating has already dropped. Furthermore, the numbers in my example shouldnt have mattered. If an 80 player is 81 in the update and another 80 player is 79 in the update, both playing the same position and at the same age, the 81 should be resigned over the 79, the numbers dont have to be off by that much, I just plugged in random numbers.

Ricky Williams was also out of the NFL for a couple seasons so hes probably more fresh than the average 31 year old, just saying. Unless hes still smoking grass.

Also, Ricky Williams had a lot fewer carries than Westbrook (160 carries, 29 receptions vs. Westbrook's 233 carries, 54 receptions). So it's easier to have a greater YPC when you have fewer carries, because your long runs carry more weight. Also, Williams YPC was 0.1 higher than Westbrooks'. Big whoop.