Zoom/SoxNats argument

Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah whatever I meant 2/70 Very Happy

That's not bad math, I just misread what you wrote, my math was correct.

And anyway, you've only made a case for rushing stats, and Thomas allowed 2 sacks. Long gave up 2.5. So Thomas is a better pass protector, and Long is a better run blocker. At LT, pass blocking is more important than run blocking.

At LT, pass blocking is important if you're a passing team, run blocking is important if you're a running team. Both teams can be classified as running teams (you could say Philly was a passing/balanced team, but their star player is a HB, so what does it say about your team if your scheme shifts from your star players primary role). A position and player is important to a team only if its what your team revolves around. If a team never passes the ball, then how is pass blocking going to be important for a LT. Look at Tra's prior stats, you'll see hes not even that great of a pass blocker (I think 6 sacks allowed in 08' and 7 the year before).

id take ~0.6-0.7 more ypc (that amounts to maybe 80 total yards due to long) over half a sack (which detracts maybe 4 yards of offense on long's shoulders) ANYDAY. Given that the sacks are only off by 0.5 where as ypc is off by more, longs run blocking abilities heavily outweight tra's pass blocking abilities, making long much more valuable.

He had 3 in 2006, I couldn't find 07 and 08. The Eagles pass 60.8% of the time, which is 6th in the NFL after Arizona, Indy, Detroit, Denver, and New Orleans. So I definitely wouldn't classify them as a running team.

Quote:

(you could say Philly was a passing/balanced team, but their star
player is a HB, so what does it say about your team if your scheme
shifts from your star players primary role)

which is why I said that.....

3.25 apparently which isnt substantially impressive and more importantly its worse than what long did this year
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4276&team=30
his sacks allowed never has been overly impressive aside from 06 and 08. Infact for the most part its been awful.

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Guest

FalconsFan612 wrote:

You guys should chill out, it's not a big deal which player is better... after all, it's not like it really affects you Very Happy

lol fine ignore me then Smile

Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

FalconsFan612 wrote:

You guys should chill out, it's not a big deal which player is better... after all, it's not like it really affects you Very Happy

lol fine ignore me then Smile

I saw it, the thing is im perfectly chill. This is a football league so discussing aspects of football is more than welcome, me and sox are at a disagreement, just because theres a disagreement on the internet doesnt mean that either of the parties involved are upset in any way. I dont take arguements on the internet seriously, for me discussions like this only bring insight, I didnt know that in 06' Tra had allowed 3.25 sacks (infact I thought he had like 8.0) nor did I know that he allowed 2.0 this year, nothing wrong with learning new information.

Only reason im coming down on sox so hard for not presenting facts is because an arguement without facts not only holds no actual value, but it also introduces opinion, opinion is what causes tension.

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Guest

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

FalconsFan612 wrote:

You guys should chill out, it's not a big deal which player is better... after all, it's not like it really affects you Very Happy

lol fine ignore me then Smile

I saw it, the thing is im perfectly chill. This is a football league so discussing aspects of football is more than welcome, me and sox are at a disagreement, just because theres a disagreement on the internet doesnt mean that either of the parties involved are upset in any way. I dont take arguements on the internet seriously, for me discussions like this only bring insight, I didnt know that in 06' Tra had allowed 3.25 sacks (infact I thought he had like 8.0) nor did I know that he allowed 2.0 this year, nothing wrong with learning new information.

Only reason im coming down on sox so hard for not presenting facts is because an arguement without facts not only holds no actual value, but it also introduces opinion, opinion is what causes tension.

I see, well I don't know you guys too well so it just seems like you are mad at each other.

And how can you have 3.25 sacks allowed? 4 guys let one of them get the sack? Razz

PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah whatever I meant 2/70 Very Happy

That's not bad math, I just misread what you wrote, my math was correct.

And anyway, you've only made a case for rushing stats, and Thomas allowed 2 sacks. Long gave up 2.5. So Thomas is a better pass protector, and Long is a better run blocker. At LT, pass blocking is more important than run blocking.

At LT, pass blocking is important if you're a passing team, run blocking is important if you're a running team. Both teams can be classified as running teams (you could say Philly was a passing/balanced team, but their star player is a HB, so what does it say about your team if your scheme shifts from your star players primary role). A position and player is important to a team only if its what your team revolves around. If a team never passes the ball, then how is pass blocking going to be important for a LT. Look at Tra's prior stats, you'll see hes not even that great of a pass blocker (I think 6 sacks allowed in 08' and 7 the year before).

id take ~0.6-0.7 more ypc (that amounts to maybe 80 total yards due to long) over half a sack (which detracts maybe 4 yards of offense on long's shoulders) ANYDAY. Given that the sacks are only off by 0.5 where as ypc is off by more, longs run blocking abilities heavily outweight tra's pass blocking abilities, making long much more valuable.

He had 3 in 2006, I couldn't find 07 and 08. The Eagles pass 60.8% of the time, which is 6th in the NFL after Arizona, Indy, Detroit, Denver, and New Orleans. So I definitely wouldn't classify them as a running team.

Quote:

(you could say Philly was a passing/balanced team, but their star
player is a HB, so what does it say about your team if your scheme
shifts from your star players primary role)

which is why I said that.....

3.25 apparently which isnt substantially impressive and more importantly its worse than what long did this year
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4276&team=30
his sacks allowed never has been overly impressive aside from 06 and 08. Infact for the most part its been awful.

Yeah, Andy Reid isn't smart. They still pass a lot.

Thomas also allowed only 2 sacks in 2005. He's given up about 3.5 sacks per year the last 4 years, which is pretty good... you also have to take into account that since the Eagles pass more, he naturally will give up more sacks than Long will.

And I object to where you said I don't provide stats, I've provided plenty of stats.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah, Andy Reid isn't smart. They still pass a lot.

Thomas also allowed only 2 sacks in 2005. He's given up about 3.5 sacks per year the last 4 years, which is pretty good... you also have to take into account that since the Eagles pass more, he naturally will give up more sacks than Long will.

And I object to where you said I don't provide stats, I've provided plenty of stats.

those 2 sacks came in 10 games, so his average over the last four years would most likely be around 4.5, which isnt mind blowing. 4.5 sacks allowed in the last four years and like an average of 7.0 sacks allowed in the years before that certainly doesnt classify him as a top LT in the league. His average over his career would probably hover around 6.0, again, not an overly impressive number.

the only stats ive seen you give are the ones I mentioned in the response to the Falcons GM, a couple regarding Williams and the Eagles being 6th in passing. And you cant argue that you didnt list any stats within the first 3 pages of the arguement. However, id say at least 1/2 to 3/4 of my responses have some facts or statistics included in them.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah, Andy Reid isn't smart. They still pass a lot.

Thomas also allowed only 2 sacks in 2005. He's given up about 3.5 sacks per year the last 4 years, which is pretty good... you also have to take into account that since the Eagles pass more, he naturally will give up more sacks than Long will.

And I object to where you said I don't provide stats, I've provided plenty of stats.

those 2 sacks came in 10 games, so his average over the last four years would most likely be around 4.5, which isnt mind blowing. 4.5 sacks allowed in the last four years and like an average of 7.0 sacks allowed in the years before that certainly doesnt classify him as a top LT in the league. His average over his career would probably hover around 6.0, again, not an overly impressive number.

the only stats ive seen you give are the ones I mentioned in the response to the Falcons GM, a couple regarding Williams and the Eagles being 6th in passing. And you cant argue that you didnt list any stats within the first 3 pages of the arguement. However, id say at least 1/2 to 3/4 of my responses have some facts or statistics included in them.

Again, the Eagles pass more, so naturally he will allow more sacks.

I still used logical information, just not statistics. I didn't say you didn't use stats early on, I was just objecting to you saying I didn't provide stats.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah, Andy Reid isn't smart. They still pass a lot.

Thomas also allowed only 2 sacks in 2005. He's given up about 3.5 sacks per year the last 4 years, which is pretty good... you also have to take into account that since the Eagles pass more, he naturally will give up more sacks than Long will.

And I object to where you said I don't provide stats, I've provided plenty of stats.

those 2 sacks came in 10 games, so his average over the last four years would most likely be around 4.5, which isnt mind blowing. 4.5 sacks allowed in the last four years and like an average of 7.0 sacks allowed in the years before that certainly doesnt classify him as a top LT in the league. His average over his career would probably hover around 6.0, again, not an overly impressive number.

the only stats ive seen you give are the ones I mentioned in the response to the Falcons GM, a couple regarding Williams and the Eagles being 6th in passing. And you cant argue that you didnt list any stats within the first 3 pages of the arguement. However, id say at least 1/2 to 3/4 of my responses have some facts or statistics included in them.

Again, the Eagles pass more, so naturally he will allow more sacks.

I still used logical information, just not statistics. I didn't say you didn't use stats early on, I was just objecting to you saying I didn't provide stats.

Again, the Eagles passed more for a reason, and it wasnt always that way.

logical information isnt logical unless it comes from factual or statistical evidence, otherwise its just information which should normally be able to be pieced together.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah, Andy Reid isn't smart. They still pass a lot.

Thomas also allowed only 2 sacks in 2005. He's given up about 3.5 sacks per year the last 4 years, which is pretty good... you also have to take into account that since the Eagles pass more, he naturally will give up more sacks than Long will.

And I object to where you said I don't provide stats, I've provided plenty of stats.

those 2 sacks came in 10 games, so his average over the last four years would most likely be around 4.5, which isnt mind blowing. 4.5 sacks allowed in the last four years and like an average of 7.0 sacks allowed in the years before that certainly doesnt classify him as a top LT in the league. His average over his career would probably hover around 6.0, again, not an overly impressive number.

the only stats ive seen you give are the ones I mentioned in the response to the Falcons GM, a couple regarding Williams and the Eagles being 6th in passing. And you cant argue that you didnt list any stats within the first 3 pages of the arguement. However, id say at least 1/2 to 3/4 of my responses have some facts or statistics included in them.

Again, the Eagles pass more, so naturally he will allow more sacks.

I still used logical information, just not statistics. I didn't say you didn't use stats early on, I was just objecting to you saying I didn't provide stats.

Again, the Eagles passed more for a reason, and it wasnt always that way.

logical information isnt logical unless it comes from factual or statistical evidence, otherwise its just information which should normally be able to be pieced together.

The reason is that Westbrook is their best offensive player?

Eagles pass more, so naturally Tra Thomas will allow more sacks.

That is not a statistic, it is logical information.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

The reason is that their best offensive player (Westbrook), sucked behind bad run support. I think ive gone over that before.

It isnt logical information because anybody can divulge it, dont call common sense logical. Tra Thomas still averages over his long career about 6 sacks/season as a starter, you dont think that detracts from his value? The fact hes had 2 good years in his 10+ year career doesnt make him a good LT either.

All that you're doing is factoring in his pass blocking abilities based on one or two seasons, you're not factoring in those other 12 or so seasons and you arent considering run blocking at all. Sure he did well pass blocking last season, I never said he didnt, but in his whole career he hasnt been impressive and last years poor run support doesnt make him close to being elite.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

I conceded that Long was a better run blocker... even then, he gave up what, 7-8 sacks a year? The Eagles pass more, so naturally he gives up more sacks.

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Mavfatha · Subject: Re: Zoom/SoxNats argument March 16th 2009, 9:04 pm

Wasn't this arguement supposed to be about whether Ray Lewis was more valuable than Thomas? (which he clearly is)

PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Mavfatha wrote:

Wasn't this arguement supposed to be about whether Ray Lewis was more valuable than Thomas? (which he clearly is)

The reason I had said that was because Thomas was rated higher than Lewis... that's not really the debate anymore. I think Thomas is a top LT, and Zoom disagrees.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

I conceded that Long was a better run blocker... even then, he gave up what, 7-8 sacks a year? The Eagles pass more, so naturally he gives up more sacks.

The broncos pass a lot, clady gave up 0.5 sacks on the season, the Colts' Ryan Diem gave up 1.5 sacks, the Saints' Jamaal Brown gave up 3.0 and Mike Gandy did allow 6.25 but thats less than your 7/year average, and Gandy also did well blocking for Edge. Thats 4 out of the 5 teams starting LTs doing better than Tras career average, 2 doing better than Tra this year. I didnt bother checking for the Lions and simply assumed their LT did worse.

And 7-8 sacks on any team, high passing percentage or not, isnt something you brag about.

Im not saying you're wrong that Tra would have to protect the pass more often in such situations, but it becomes apparent that passing % for teams is probably factored in would explain why you see more sacks for DEs than you see sacks allowed for OTs. Either way theres probably other things to factor in sacks allowed and either way Tra Thomas sux

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