Zoom/SoxNats argument

Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the top LT thing.

And I agree with you on the last part, my point is that your argument for him not being a top LT is opinionated.

to which MK said he didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT, so he wasnt even agreeing with you on that either.

HOW and WHERE did I give an opinion in justifying long, clady or gandy to you

I said top OT, not top 5.

That's exactly the point... you said they are better (which is your opinion), and then you provide facts such as Long was important in making the Fins go from 1-15 to 11-5. That doesn't really show anything. I said that Thomas was instrumental in getting the Eagles to the NFC Championship game. Fins didn't make it to the championship game. Therefore, Eagles>Dolphins, so Thomas > Long. Obviously that's not necessarily true, but that is the type of reasoning you are using.

And as to the point I was trying to make in the very beginning, what are we basing these resignings off of? Madden 09 ratings. And in Madden 09, Thomas is rated higher than Lewis. Saying Lewis > Thomas is purely opinion, my point is that since we are following the ratings in every other aspect of resignings, why not this one?

If you didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT then there was no reason for you to suggest he should be released over Ray Lewis, unless you were trying to cover your tracks for pointing out Lewis could have been franchised when you didnt realize this was a team that had a GM.

How does showing facts proving Long was a huge contribution to the team not prove anything. What I did was present facts as to why Long was important to the team. You didnt give any facts or reasons for why Thomas did well, all you said was "he was instumental in blocking for McNabb". Then I presented facts that deducted from his run support. You havent presented any factual information at all, you're the one whos been trying to pass your own opinion as fact.

And that type of reasoning I am in no way using, im not comparing two teams that didnt meet each other in the playoffs, im comparing an aspect of each team and giving reason as to why one excelled while the other failed.

You're completely wrong about what we're looking for in re-signings, we're re-signing those who will be helpful in Madden 10 given their most updated madden 09 ratings; example, if you had to choose between resigning an 81 player in madden 09 whos 60 in the updates and an 80 rated player in madden 09 whos 90 in the updates, you should choose the 80 overall player.. Lewis plays a much more important position, Lewis is younger, and Lewis' rating was in place to take a slight increase where as Tra's was in the position to taking a slight dip. All of those factors point to Lewis being the more valuable player and THAT is why you're wrong about Tra being the one who should have been released.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the top LT thing.

And I agree with you on the last part, my point is that your argument for him not being a top LT is opinionated.

to which MK said he didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT, so he wasnt even agreeing with you on that either.

HOW and WHERE did I give an opinion in justifying long, clady or gandy to you

I said top OT, not top 5.

That's exactly the point... you said they are better (which is your opinion), and then you provide facts such as Long was important in making the Fins go from 1-15 to 11-5. That doesn't really show anything. I said that Thomas was instrumental in getting the Eagles to the NFC Championship game. Fins didn't make it to the championship game. Therefore, Eagles>Dolphins, so Thomas > Long. Obviously that's not necessarily true, but that is the type of reasoning you are using.

And as to the point I was trying to make in the very beginning, what are we basing these resignings off of? Madden 09 ratings. And in Madden 09, Thomas is rated higher than Lewis. Saying Lewis > Thomas is purely opinion, my point is that since we are following the ratings in every other aspect of resignings, why not this one?

If you didnt think Tra was a top 5 OT then there was no reason for you to suggest he should be released over Ray Lewis, unless you were trying to cover your tracks for pointing out Lewis could have been franchised when you didnt realize this was a team that had a GM.

How does showing facts proving Long was a huge contribution to the team not prove anything. What I did was present facts as to why Long was important to the team. You didnt give any facts or reasons for why Thomas did well, all you said was "he was instumental in blocking for McNabb". Then I presented facts that deducted from his run support. You havent presented any factual information at all, you're the one whos been trying to pass your own opinion as fact.

And that type of reasoning I am in no way using, im not comparing two teams that didnt meet each other in the playoffs, im comparing an aspect of each team and giving reason as to why one excelled while the other failed.

You're completely wrong about what we're looking for in re-signings, we're re-signing those who will be helpful in Madden 10 given their most updated madden 09 ratings; example, if you had to choose between resigning an 81 player in madden 09 whos 60 in the updates and an 80 rated player in madden 09 whos 90 in the updates, you should choose the 80 overall player.. Lewis plays a much more important position, Lewis is younger, and Lewis' rating was in place to take a slight increase where as Tra's was in the position to taking a slight dip. All of those factors point to Lewis being the more valuable player and THAT is why you're wrong about Tra being the one who should have been released.

You are correct in that I didn't believe they had a GM.

I don't see much evidence... Westbrook's YPC has dropped. As MK said, that also has to do with the fact that he's reaching 30... I didn't see any conclusive counter to that. This is your reasoning for Long:

Quote:

ok so the greatest turnaround in NFL history has nothing to do with the #1 overall pick performing well, if thats your line of thinking then theres simply no reasoning with you.

Same can be said of Thomas. Substutite greatest turnaround with making it to the NFC championship game, substitute #1 pick with Thomas, and there's your argument right back at you.

Of course we look towards 2010, but as of now there really is no conclusive evidence that either will drop 20 pts or gain 10 pts as you said in your extreme example. They will be in the same range, and thus you are basically using your opinion here. I don't see how you can say otherwise to that point.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

This is your reasoning for Long:

Quote:

ok so the greatest turnaround in NFL history has nothing to do with the #1 overall pick performing well, if thats your line of thinking then theres simply no reasoning with you.

Same can be said of Thomas. Substutite greatest turnaround with making it to the NFC championship game, substitute #1 pick with Thomas, and there's your argument right back at you.

a) THIS was my reasoning for Long

Quote:

-Dolphins draft OT #1 overall
-Dolphins go 11-5
-reason Dolphins go 11-5?
-A: trick plays, balanced running attack, good QB, pass rush
-where do trick plays usually get run?
-A: to the outside
-who guards the outside?
-A: OT's
-who plays OT for the Dolphins?
-A: Jake Long
-who rushes for 5.0 ypc when Jake Long is the primary blocker (this is a statistic incase you were wondering)
-A: Ricky Williams/Ronnie Brown

b) the same cannot be said for Tra Thomas because Miami's run game beasted where as Phillys was lacking. If 30 is the "magic age where you all of a sudden slump" then Ricky Williams (31) shouldnt have averaged more ypc than Westbrook.

SoxNats09 wrote:

Of course we look towards 2010, but as of now there really is no conclusive evidence that either will drop 20 pts or gain 10 pts as you said in your extreme example. They will be in the same range, and thus you are basically using your opinion here. I don't see how you can say otherwise to that point.

as of now Tra has dropped 2 points, Ray Lewis has gone up 3 points, so far theyre sitting at a 4 pt difference, and when that 4 pts is between 93 and 97, that gap is fairly large. Obviously that IS NOT opinion, I suggest you know the facts or else you come out looking like an idiot. And the fact is Lewis' rating has already jumped, Thomas' rating has already dropped. Furthermore, the numbers in my example shouldnt have mattered. If an 80 player is 81 in the update and another 80 player is 79 in the update, both playing the same position and at the same age, the 81 should be resigned over the 79, the numbers dont have to be off by that much, I just plugged in random numbers.

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Harper41 · Admin Posts: 1244 Join date: 2008-10-04

Ricky Williams was also out of the NFL for a couple seasons so hes probably more fresh than the average 31 year old, just saying. Unless hes still smoking grass.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Also, Ricky Williams had a lot fewer carries than Westbrook (160 carries, 29 receptions vs. Westbrook's 233 carries, 54 receptions). So it's easier to have a greater YPC when you have fewer carries, because your long runs carry more weight. Also, Williams YPC was 0.1 higher than Westbrooks'. Big whoop.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

Harper41 wrote:

Ricky Williams was also out of the NFL for a couple seasons so hes probably more fresh than the average 31 year old, just saying. Unless hes still smoking grass.

being out of the NFL should just have made him rusty, sure he'd be a bit fresher but being in and out of the NFL like that is gonna do more harm than good.

plus one or two of those years he was in the CFL.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Also, Ricky Williams had a lot fewer carries than Westbrook (160 carries, 29 receptions vs. Westbrook's 233 carries, 54 receptions). So it's easier to have a greater YPC when you have fewer carries, because your long runs carry more weight. Also, Williams YPC was 0.1 higher than Westbrooks'. Big whoop.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 0.1 higher is still better is it not?

he had 70% of Westbrooks carries, if the numbers were like 100 vs 233 id care, but 160 is still more than enough runs to effectively negate any significant distorting effects to his ypc.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Also, Ricky Williams had a lot fewer carries than Westbrook (160 carries, 29 receptions vs. Westbrook's 233 carries, 54 receptions). So it's easier to have a greater YPC when you have fewer carries, because your long runs carry more weight. Also, Williams YPC was 0.1 higher than Westbrooks'. Big whoop.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 0.1 higher is still better is it not?

he had 70% of Westbrooks carries, if the numbers were like 100 vs 233 id care, but 160 is still more than enough runs to effectively negate any significant distorting effects to his ypc.

It's better by a negligible difference. Honestly, the fact that he had a higher YPC holds very little weight since it was by 0.1.

Each of his big runs counts for more... Williams also had a very good running back to pair with him in Ronnie Brown. Westbrook has Correll Buckhalter, who isn't the best back.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Also, Ricky Williams had a lot fewer carries than Westbrook (160 carries, 29 receptions vs. Westbrook's 233 carries, 54 receptions). So it's easier to have a greater YPC when you have fewer carries, because your long runs carry more weight. Also, Williams YPC was 0.1 higher than Westbrooks'. Big whoop.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 0.1 higher is still better is it not?

he had 70% of Westbrooks carries, if the numbers were like 100 vs 233 id care, but 160 is still more than enough runs to effectively negate any significant distorting effects to his ypc.

It's better by a negligible difference. Honestly, the fact that he had a higher YPC holds very little weight since it was by 0.1.

Each of his big runs counts for more... Williams also had a very good running back to pair with him in Ronnie Brown. Westbrook has Correll Buckhalter, who isn't the best back.

the fact that Ricky Williams is a bad football player and has a 0.1 higher ypc getting 70% of the carries as Westbrook holds more than a little weight.

Williams has 160 rushes, thats a high number of carries. So if a significant portion of those rushes were for big gains thats because of skill, the only way outliers would really distort his ypc is if he had 1-80 carries.

Since Westie gets more carries HE HAS HAD MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO GET THOSE LARGE RUNS. If a player breaks a 40 yard run 10% of the time and rushes 100 times hes expected to break ten 40 yard runs. Now if another player breaks a 40 yard run 10% of the time and rushes 200 times, hes expected to break twenty 40 yard runs. If both players average 4.0 ypc before you factor in those 40 yard runs, theyre still going to have the same ypc after you factor in the 40 yard runs. You cant make that arguement because you're literally talking out of your ass as you dont know how many big rushes Williams broke and you dont know how many Westbrook broke. Here is a fact though, Westbrook had 4 rushes last season over 30 yards, Williams had 2, so you can pretty much throw your arguement out the window.

And I dont care if Williams had Adrian Peterson pairing with him to be quite honest, I see no way how that effects the fact that running behind Jake Long the dolphins averaged 5.0 ypc. Williams/Brown/Cobbs were more effective running the ball than Westbrook/Buckhalter, bottomline. Dolphins averaged more ypc running behind Long than any of their other starting OL, bottomline.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

the fact that Ricky Williams is a bad football player and has a 0.1 higher ypc getting 70% of the carries as Westbrook holds more than a little weight.

Williams has 160 rushes, thats a high number of carries. So if a significant portion of those rushes were for big gains thats because of skill, the only way outliers would really distort his ypc is if he had 1-80 carries.

Since Westie gets more carries HE HAS HAD MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO GET THOSE LARGE RUNS. If a player breaks a 40 yard run 10% of the time and rushes 100 times hes expected to break ten 40 yard runs. Now if another player breaks a 40 yard run 10% of the time and rushes 200 times, hes expected to break twenty 40 yard runs. If both players average 4.0 ypc before you factor in those 40 yard runs, theyre still going to have the same ypc after you factor in the 40 yard runs. You cant make that arguement because you're literally talking out of your ass as you dont know how many big rushes Williams broke and you dont know how many Westbrook broke. Here is a fact though, Westbrook had 4 rushes last season over 30 yards, Williams had 2, so you can pretty much throw your arguement out the window.

And I dont care if Williams had Adrian Peterson pairing with him to be quite honest, I see no way how that effects the fact that running behind Jake Long the dolphins averaged 5.0 ypc. Williams/Brown/Cobbs were more effective running the ball than Westbrook/Buckhalter, bottomline. Dolphins averaged more ypc running behind Long than any of their other starting OL, bottomline.

Williams isn't a bad football player...

Westbrook has more opportunities to get the large runs, but they count for less, so this point doesn't matter that much. So Westbrook had 4 and Williams had 2. Since Ricky had 70% of the carries, you can set it up like this:

4/100 < 3/70

So Williams has a higher percentage of big runs...

It completely affects the YPC. Is your stat referring to when the Fins ran behind Long, or when they ran it period? Because the Fins have a very solid offensive line besides Long.

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Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Williams isn't a bad football player...

sure

SoxNats09 wrote:

Westbrook has more opportunities to get the large runs, but they count for less, so this point doesn't matter that much. So Westbrook had 4 and Williams had 2. Since Ricky had 70% of the carries, you can set it up like this:

4/100 < 3/70

ummm... its 2/70 not 3/70
2/70 = 1/35
4/100 = 1/25

nice math

SoxNats09 wrote:

So Williams DOESNT have a higher percentage of big runs...

fixed

SoxNats09 wrote:

It completely affects the YPC. Is your stat referring to when the Fins ran behind Long, or when they ran it period? Because the Fins have a very solid offensive line besides Long.

The stat refers to running behind Long, not their ypc period. Their combined ypc would be around 4.2

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Yeah whatever I meant 2/70 Very Happy

That's not bad math, I just misread what you wrote, my math was correct.

And anyway, you've only made a case for rushing stats, and Thomas allowed 2 sacks. Long gave up 2.5. So Thomas is a better pass protector, and Long is a better run blocker. At LT, pass blocking is more important than run blocking.

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Guest

You guys should chill out, it's not a big deal which player is better... after all, it's not like it really affects you Very Happy

Touchdown Jesus · Admin Posts: 2076 Join date: 2008-08-21

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah whatever I meant 2/70 Very Happy

That's not bad math, I just misread what you wrote, my math was correct.

And anyway, you've only made a case for rushing stats, and Thomas allowed 2 sacks. Long gave up 2.5. So Thomas is a better pass protector, and Long is a better run blocker. At LT, pass blocking is more important than run blocking.

At LT, pass blocking is important if you're a passing team, run blocking is important if you're a running team. Both teams can be classified as running teams (you could say Philly was a passing/balanced team, but their star player is a HB, so what does it say about your team if your scheme shifts from your star players primary role). A position and player is important to a team only if its what your team revolves around. If a team never passes the ball, then how is pass blocking going to be important for a LT. Look at Tra's prior stats, you'll see hes not even that great of a pass blocker (I think 6 sacks allowed in 08' and 7 the year before).

id take ~0.6-0.7 more ypc (that amounts to maybe 80 total yards due to long) over half a sack (which detracts maybe 4 yards of offense on long's shoulders) ANYDAY. Given that the sacks are only off by 0.5 where as ypc is off by more, longs run blocking abilities heavily outweight tra's pass blocking abilities, making long much more valuable.

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PatsNats09 · Admin Posts: 2673 Join date: 2008-08-21 Age: 16

Touchdown Jesus wrote:

SoxNats09 wrote:

Yeah whatever I meant 2/70 Very Happy

That's not bad math, I just misread what you wrote, my math was correct.

And anyway, you've only made a case for rushing stats, and Thomas allowed 2 sacks. Long gave up 2.5. So Thomas is a better pass protector, and Long is a better run blocker. At LT, pass blocking is more important than run blocking.

At LT, pass blocking is important if you're a passing team, run blocking is important if you're a running team. Both teams can be classified as running teams (you could say Philly was a passing/balanced team, but their star player is a HB, so what does it say about your team if your scheme shifts from your star players primary role). A position and player is important to a team only if its what your team revolves around. If a team never passes the ball, then how is pass blocking going to be important for a LT. Look at Tra's prior stats, you'll see hes not even that great of a pass blocker (I think 6 sacks allowed in 08' and 7 the year before).

id take ~0.6-0.7 more ypc (that amounts to maybe 80 total yards due to long) over half a sack (which detracts maybe 4 yards of offense on long's shoulders) ANYDAY. Given that the sacks are only off by 0.5 where as ypc is off by more, longs run blocking abilities heavily outweight tra's pass blocking abilities, making long much more valuable.

He had 3 in 2006, I couldn't find 07 and 08. The Eagles pass 60.8% of the time, which is 6th in the NFL after Arizona, Indy, Detroit, Denver, and New Orleans. So I definitely wouldn't classify them as a running team.

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